The Good Road of Life: An Interview with Clayton Small

Simonelli: The focus in your Ph.D. work at Gonzaga University in Spokane, Washington is educational leadership. What does educational leadership mean?

Small: Educational leadership means being a facilitator of change. It means working to change situations and systems and environments, communities, families, and individuals. It means trying to facilitate some magic, to facilitate empowerment so that systems and people and communities can grow and change. To me that's what educational leadership is all about. It's about facilitating change and growth.

Simonelli: Do you envision facilitating change and growth through educational institutions or through education in a wider sense?

Small: Education is about learning. We are lifelong learners. We learn something new every day. When you finish one degree, or you finish a degree like a Ph.D., or an M.D., or a law degree, it doesn't mean you stop learning. There is formal learning in school and in colleges and universities, and there is every day learning. You have to be on a path for both concurrently. For example, as an Indian youth pursuing education and college degrees you can't forget the learnings from your culture. The learnings from your ceremonial life. The learning from your family and community. Those are a different kind of learning, a cultural learning or a community learning. In this sense, educational leadership is about the pursuit of learning forever. From cradle to grave.

Simonelli: What made you choose to go for a Ph.D. when you had a career in educational administration already under way?

Small: It's an issue of access, opportunity and credibility. Having a degree like a Ph.D.. opens doors that don't exist if you don't have it. If you want to be that facilitator of change and improvement for Indian people and communities, you have to have access to the power. Getting a degree gives you access. It gives you that privilege which comes easy for non-Indians. Getting privilege and getting access to power requires some of us to pursue and complete our doctoral degrees.

Simonelli: Your Ph.D. dissertation is entitled, "The Healing of American Indian / Alaska Native Men at Mid-Life." What made you choose Native men as the subject for your work in educational leadership?

Small: When I was about 30 years old and a successful school administrator in a non-Indian urban community, I was on a path to achievement and doing well. But I began to recognize myself as a very wounded Indian warrior. I was a very wounded Indian man. I realized that there were incredible losses in my life although at that time I didn't know what they were. But I knew that I wasn't whole or complete. I knew that there was a void or a darkness in my life that overwhelmed me, consumed me and crushed me to where I couldn't breathe. I didn't know what to do with it. I didn't know who to talk to about it. I didn't know if I should talk to anybody about it. But through a series of crises in my lifegetting a divorce, struggling with my career, and having trouble with my own children and relationshipsI knew there was something that I needed to do to redirect my life.

I was in counseling and began to participate in ceremony back home in Montana with my tribe. Previously to this, ceremony and spirituality was a void in my life. But there was crisis all around me in my life and I knew if I didn't do something then my life was going to continue to be miserable. Even though I was successful in my career, as a man I was miserable. It was at that point when acknowledging that I am a pitiful manthat I need help, that I need to learn how to ask, how to ask for help, that I need to do some healing because I'm wounded, I'm hurt, I'm tormented, became clear to me. At that point I asked for help. I reached out and the healing door opened, the wellness journey began.

I started to discover issues in my life that I needed to work on. Issues with my parents, issues with my father, issues about being a mixed blooded Indian and not having a sense of belonging. Issues about the substance abuse and violence that tormented my family. These were the unresolved issues that I needed to work on.

What helped me more than anything was getting back to my own people, to my culture and our ceremonies. At that point, as I was working on myself I realized there really wasn't much out there in the way of programs that would help Indian men. That was the light bulb that came on in my mind and told me that the research for my Ph.D. dissertation needed to be about the challenges and healing and recovery for Indian men like myself. So it was really a study about myself.

Simonelli: What do you mean when you speak of pitifulness or acknowledging our pitifulness?

Small: Pitifulness in my definition means that we are at a point in our personal journey where we can reach out and ask for help. Where we can say, 'I'm pitiful, I'm hurt, I'm wounded and I desperately need your help. Can you help me? Are you willing to help me? Can I trust you enough so that I can ask you to help me in my journey?' Our ceremonies help us to do that. We have to do that. We have to offer tobacco and follow the proper protocol when you ask someone to teach you or to guide you in ceremony. Our traditional Native spirituality and our ceremonies help us to acknowledge that it's OK to ask for help. It's necessary to ask for help. You need help on this journey because it's so difficult and so challenging. You can't do it alone.

Simonelli: Some of the most powerful and moving sections in your dissertation are the profiles or "wellness stories" of four Native men. What is wellness for an Indian man?

Small: Part of the design for my research was to interview "healthy men." But what is a well Indian man? Some of the indicators of a well Indian man are that you are not abusing substances, you are not abusing people, you're not a violent person, you're not into sex addictions, food addictions or gambling addictions. I'm not trying to describe a perfect man but I'm describing an Indian man who acknowledges his pitifulness, who knows that he has to change his behavior and attitude. I sought out those men and through discussions came up with a pool of men who I interviewed for my study and they told me their story.

Simonelli: What was your own experience of participation in a support group for Native men who are undertaking a wellness journey?

Small: I was in therapy when I began my Ph.D. work and was going to support groups for men. But I wasn't making the cultural connection which I needed. We weren't talking about ceremony, spirituality or issues that pertain to Indian men. Issues that specifically wound us, or hurt us, or traumatize us.

In Spokane I was connected with Indian professionals in different fields who I worked with. We found each other in a large city. We were looking for the same thing. We were all wounded and we were all lost and confused and frustrated and angry. So we found each other and we started going to prayer lodges, or sweat lodges together a couple of times a month. I built a sweat lodge on my property and the men would come for dinner. We would pray together and cry and laugh together. It was powerful making that connection knowing that there were other men who are in the same boat, who are struggling with the same issues. And we helped each other grow. I'm still friends with those men even though they are far away. I count them as my good friends and we've stayed connected over the years.

That informal men's support group in Spokane led me to pilot the formation of an Indian men's support group in Albuquerque when I relocated to New Mexico and as I got further into my dissertation study. The challenges were, how do you start an Indian men's support group? What are the issues? How do you get them to trust each other? How do you get them to talk to each other about something more than sports, sex and weather? How do you get Indian men to talk to each other about matters of the heart?

Simonelli: What are the main themes or issues for Native men's wellness which you've discovered in your work and which you include in your own facilitation of Native men's groups?

Small: The five major themes we've identified represent the "common ground" or overarching areas of concern for Native men. These are alcoholism and other addictions; multi-generational trauma and cultural oppression; father/son relationships; spirituality; and role modeling and service to the community. We talk about these more in an introductory video for Native men called "The Good Road of Life" Model For Men. The video introduces the model which is the basis of our men's work. We also provide some information about setting up Native men's support groups when you request the video.

The Good Road of Life model is a four-stage process which facilitates a journey inward for Native men. This model is brought to life through the use of Native American ledger art and four specific coyote stories. The core or essence of the good Road of Life Model is the incorporation of Native spirituality. Spirituality is the driving force that allows Native men to not only seek a new beginning, but to continue the healing journey.

Simonelli: What are some of the issues regarding wellness which you see and work with at the community and Tribal level?

Small: Some of the training and facilitation that I do is directed at helping mobilize Indian communities. But what I do is not so much training but rather facilitation. There is a distinction between facilitation and being the expert trainer. In facilitating you are coaching and nudging, you are encouraging, you are asking the right questions so that people who are in the gathering can have lights go on. You're not telling them. You're not the silver bullet. You're not the magic pill. You're creating the sense of empowerment and self-awareness so they discover, "This is what I need to work on, this is what our community needs to work on."

Indian people who live and die on their reservations are the ones who know what the problems are. They're the ones who need to come up with solutions. What I see so much in Indian country is that we've become dependent on the federal government. We've become dependent on outside forces to tell us what we should do. But that kind of mentality is leaving. And what's replacing it is the sense that "We know what we need to do and we are in control of our own destiny. So let's put things in place so we can do that together." There is a sense of collaboration. More of a sense of team work than ever before.

One of the greatest obstacles in the work that I do with Indian communities is to get people to see how powerful lateral cultural oppression is. Lateral oppression means, how do we do each other in, how do we back stab, and gossip, and glare and try to destroy each other? One of the first things that Indian communities need to do is to acknowledge that we are doing that. We are oppressing and hurting and dragging each other down. How do we change that paradigm and do something different? How do we work together? The answer is that it is a healing process.

Simonelli: How does the healing process get applied at the community level?

Small: There is historical trauma that has happened to Indian communities and Indian tribes. There are issues that are multigenerational in families. If you are going to help facilitate change in communities, part of the challenge is to get individuals within those communities to do their own personal healing work. So how long does that take? How long does it take an individual to get healthy and well? It takes a long time. Community change is a journey.. It's not so much a destination, as in we've arrived, but it's all the struggles along the way. All the learnings, all the growth, all the Ah Ha's! that happen as you are on your journey to get there.

Simonelli: What would help create more harmonious man-woman relationships or harmonious relationships between two-spirited (gay and lesbian) people and their companions in Indian communities so that families can better function in wellness?

Small: What helps us have healthy relationships with others, whether husband-wife, partners, friends, or our children, is when we are a healthy person as an individual. That means each one of us has to do that personal journey or personal "firewalk." We each have to resolve the personal issues which cause us to feel wounded or overwhelmed. As we do that personal work, or do that letting go and healing, we are at a point in our life where we are at peace and we see the world differently. Then we are in a very good place to have healthy relationships. If we are going to have a healthy relationship with anyone we have got to do our personal work first. If we want men and women to have better relationships, if we want Indian people to be open to people of different sexual preferences, we need to have done our work first.

Women have been the backbone of the healing work in leadership in Indian country and not all men are ready to acknowledge that. Not all men are ready to say, "I'm really thankful for the Indian women in my life. For all they've done for me. For my mother, for my sisters, for my aunts for my grandmother." Indian women in my own life have been a source of inspiration, have been role models for me in terms of wellness. Our Indian men need to acknowledge that. They need to say, "I respect you. I appreciate you. I love you. And I hope that when I was unhealthy, when I wasn't on a wellness path, the things that I said and did to you that hurt you, I'm sorry for that and I hope that you can forgive me."

Our Indian women need to hear words like these. Our Indian men need to say it and to say it with a sincere heart. When those things start to happen, women are going to feel they can forgive and let go of some of the burdens of being hurt and wounded by the men that they carry in their life. It's a reciprocal relationship or communication that needs to happen. The men need to make amends and the women need to hear it, acknowledge it and accept it. Then we need to move forward together.

Simonelli: What is the state of the Indian Nation regarding healing and wellness today? What is happening now in these arenas that wasn't happening, say, ten years ago?

Small: I think there is a sense of empowerment, there is a sense of independence, there is a sense of acknowledging our sovereign status as Indian nations. More than ever in recent times, we are in control of our destinies, we know what the challenges are and we know what the solutions are. There is a sense of teaming and collaboration, there is a sense of forgiving and embracing our cultural identity. We're proud today to be Indian men and women. We're not just surviving.

I hear Indian people say, "I'm a survivor of this or a survivor of that." I say bullshit! It's time to live! And to live fully! We don't need to be in the survival mode any more. I see that as the evolving state in Indian country. We're out of the surviving model and into the "living fully" mode. And that's significant, that's a significant transformation.

A lot of our Indian tribes are gaming tribes and have developed economic stability resulting in more jobs. There is a sense of purpose. We're overcoming a lot of the poverty among our Indian nations. These are significant changes. I see our Indian people also maintaining the stewardship of our land and water and air. That's our grounding. That's what keeps us grounded to the earth and to the spiritsour land!

I call our younger generation "Renaissance Indians" because they are transcending into new arenas through education and leadershiparenas Indian leaders haven't been before. I see them as our next generation of leaders who are going to continue to empower and help our communities grow and develop. It's an exciting time! I think as an Indian nation of people we have developed the readiness to be open to change, to be open to improvement. We are not doing each other in and oppressing each other as we have been. We have acknowledged as a people nationwide that we need to grow. That we need to change. And there are certain things that help us get there. Our culture, and our spirituality, and our ceremonies, and our abilities to do our own personal healing work help us get there.

Simonelli: Where is your own wellness path taking you as you begin to use your educational skills on a nationwide level to provide services to Native men and to Native communities?

Small: I feel blessed to be where I'm at mid-life and to have made significant changes in my personal life as a husband, as a father, as a son, and as a teacher. I've acquired some wisdom and I'm in a position where I can be of service and give some of that back. I'd like to focus my work on a series of specific communities or programs that I can stay with over time to help those communities make significant changes and have them serve as models so that other Indian communities or programs can see that they have some answers, models or programs that work. It includes education, working with men, or with whole communities.

I especially want to encourage Native people to acknowledge the beauty that surrounds us: Our culture, our history, our sovereignty, the pride we take in who we are, and where we've come fromour ancestors. We have many challenges today as we go into the new millennium. We have to be on the Internet, to use e-mail, to be technocrats, but we also have to be a good parent, a good son or daughter, we have to honor our ceremonial obligations. There are many things that we have to do all in the same breath and it's not easy. I don't want us to get caught in our self-pity, in self-misery. I want us to see the goodness that we have and to be thankful for it. I don't want us to stay stuck in self-pity and in all the atrocities and adversities in our backgrounds as Native people. We can get stuck there. Don't go there! Don't go down that path! You have a choice, you don't have to go there! You can choose the other path. The path of beauty, of wonder, of enlightenment and change and growth. I want to encourage our people to stay focused on that path.

Clayton Small can be reached through ANAT!Accessing Native American Training at (505) 897-7968